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5 Answers

IFR Clearance Options from Uncontrolled Fields

Asked by: 3055 views Airspace, Instrument Rating

Why have I been confused twice in the last week?

First out of KLRO, departing with Ceiling 1000' and 3+ miles vis I decided to take off and get IFR clearance airborne with CHS Departure. I was told by the controller he'd give me a clearance once I reached 2000'. I know MVA is around 2000' so maybe this was why, but how was I supposed to get there with a 1000' ceiling? I found a hole, climbed through it, and went on a little confused. I didn't understand since I was in controlled airspace at 700' why he couldn't give me a clearance at that altitude or maybe ask me if I could maintain terrain and obstacle clearance to 2000' and if I replied yes, then offered me a clearance.

Then out of KMNI... same exact situation with only difference Departure saying he could give me an IFR clearance at 1600'. But again, I couldn't get there without cloud entry. I ASKED the controller IF I could maintain my own terrain and obstacle clearance, if could he then give me the clearance. He really didn't answer the question, but he just gave me the clearance.

Whenever I call approach from cell phone on the ground, I always seem to get a "enter controlled airspace on heading 123 and initial altitude" with the rest of the CRAFT clearance, so I understand that is an option. I just don't understand why I'm not getting IFR clearances when calling airborne below MVA's but in controlled airspace?

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5 Answers



  1. Mark Kolber on Sep 29, 2020

    Once you are in the air VFR, ATC is required to ask if you can maintain your own terrain and obstruction clearance up to the minimum IFR altitude for that area (assuming, of course, you are not already up there). A “yes” gives you the clearance. A “no” does not.

    It is different when you call from the ground. There, I think the underlying assumption is, you are in a location where you have done your due diligence to check for takeoff minimums, ODPs, and other published material which give you protection on the initial climb to altitude, and you know any special climb rates, directions to fly, etc. There is no such assumption in the air – they need to hear you actually say you have given those things consideration and can maneuver safely to the minimum IFR altitude.

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  2. John D Collins on Sep 29, 2020

    What Mark said. Here is the instructions that the controller must follow:

    d. When VFR aircraft operating below the minimum altitude for IFR operations requests an IFR clearance and the pilot informs you, or you are aware, that they are unable to climb in VFR conditions to the minimum IFR altitude:

    1. Before issuing a clearance, ask if the pilot is able to maintain terrain and obstruction clearance during a climb to the minimum IFR altitude.
    PHRASEOLOGY−
    (Aircraft call sign), ARE YOU ABLE TO MAINTAIN YOUR OWN TERRAIN AND OBSTRUCTION CLEARANCE UNTIL REACHING (appropriate MVA/MIA/MEA/OROCA)

    NOTE−
    Pilots of pop−up aircraft are responsible for terrain and obstacle clearance until reaching minimum instrument altitude (MIA) or minimum en route altitude (MEA). Pilot compliance with an approved FAA procedure or an ATC instruction transfers that responsibility to the FAA; therefore, do not assign (or imply) specific course guidance that will (or could) be in effect below the MIA or MEA.
    EXAMPLE−
    “November Eight Seven Six, are you able to provide your own terrain and obstruction clearance between your present altitude and six thousand feet?”
    2. If the pilot is able to maintain their own terrain and obstruction clearance, issue the appropriate IFR clearance as prescribed in Para 4−2−1, Clearance Items, and Para 4−5−6, Minimum En Route Altitudes.
    3. If the pilot states that they are unable to maintain terrain and obstruction clearance, instruct the pilot to maintain VFR and to state intentions.

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  3. kukuis on Sep 30, 2020

    Thanks to both responders. I guess if I told them I could not climb VFR, they would have (or should have) asked if i could maintain obstacle and terrain clearance. Or now knowing what I do, upon my initlal call just advise that I need an IFR clearance to climb and that I can maintain my own obstacle and terrain clearance.

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  4. Mark Kolber on Sep 30, 2020

    As John pointed in, the official question from ATC is about terrain and obstruction separation, not VFR. That’s not to say ATC doesn’t ask about VFR, but the context is different. For example, if I ask for a clearance in the air, ATC might need to withhold it due to other traffic. In that case, they will instruct me to maintain VFR, and might ask me to make sure I can.

    A suggestion. If it’s available, see if you can find a LiveATC recording of the interaction. When we have an unusual (to us) dialog with ATC, it can be very helpful to listen later. It’s also a reason some pilots record their flights, even if they don’t post them on YouTube.

    But yes, being reasonably proactive with ATC is a good thing.

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  5. kukuis on Sep 30, 2020

    I seem to be creating more questions, the more I try to understand. Given MIA, MVA, etc at 2000′:

    If ceiling is 700′, I would be legal Class G until 700′, but would need an IFR clearance to climb any higher and through ceiling.

    If ceiling is 1000′, I would still legally need clearance to climb above 700′ into Class E airspace.

    If ceiling is 1500′, I would legally need IFR clearance to climb above 1000′ to maintain 500′ below cloud clearance.

    In all cases above, I would only get the IFR Clearance if there’s no traffic conflict and I state that I can maintain my own obstruction and terrain separation.

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