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5 Answers

Intersections / Airways

Asked by: 1727 views Instrument Rating

Looking at the low altitude chart in the Seattle area: flying west on V187 to TCM VOR, could ATC ever assign or could a pilot file (for example) V187 V495 SEA? Two VOR radials cross at the V187 V495 point (SEA 168 and TCM 081) but that point doesn’t have an open triangle or name.

Thank you

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5 Answers



  1. Mark Kolber on Feb 15, 2020

    Yes. They can even tell you to intercept and join an odd radial which is not part of an airway.

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  2. John D Collins on Feb 15, 2020

    It is possible for it to get used, particularly if it is part of a preferred route. It is also accepted by ERAM (the FAA IFR computer system that processes IFR flight plans). It is however not ICAO compliant and makes for some difficulty in filing or entering into a flight plan or FMS/GPS type system as the syntax is not always supported even if ERAM allows it. Of course it can be flown if it is unambiguous and you use old fashioned VOR to determine radials. So, for example, if you were trying to program a flight into ForeFlight, that is east bound along V187 from OLM to V495 to SEA, you might have to exit V187 at TCM and specify the location of the intersection and then since V495 ends at SEA and there are no intervening waypoints, you would have to include SEA. With ForeFlight you would code the portion between OLM and SEA like this: “OLM V187 TCM TCM081/SEA168 SEA”. ERAM would likely accept OLM V187 V495 SEA, even if ForeFlight would not.

    If instead you were coming from westbound from ELN and then turning southbound after the intersection, you could rejoin V485 at the first named point such as “ELN V187 COTNY TCM TCM081/SEA168 CIDUG V495 …”.

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  3. AJ on Feb 15, 2020

    Thank you for the replies. John Collins: Great info. Do you have any reference that this isn\’t ICAO compliant?

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  4. Mark Kolber on Feb 15, 2020

    AJ, out of curiosity I experimented with doing your scenario Garmin’s GTN trainer. This is exactly the type of realistic puzzler I like to use on IPCs.

    I loaded V187 from ELM, using COTNY as the exit point, because it was the closest published waypoint before V495 crossed it.

    Then a user waypoint at the intersection of the two radials (I use UWP## as the name when I do this).

    Then SEA.

    The end result was ELM V147 COTNY UWP01 SEA.

    Once I knew what I had to do based on the en route chart (which I would have to do using any method), the process from tapping “Next Waypoint” to creating the user waypoint to adding it ans SEA to the flight plan took less than a minute.

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  5. John D Collins on Feb 15, 2020

    Yes, see ICAO doc 4444, Procedures for Air Navigation Services, Air Traffic Management for the coding of a route, field 15c.

    Also see FAA document “En Route and Oceanic Services Aeronautical Information and Flight Planning Enhancements FAA ICAO Flight Planning Interface Reference Guide Version 2.1, Attachment 1. Route (Field 15) Additions”. I excerpted a section of the this document for your convenience:

    Field 15c – Route

    Some non-ICAO route elements are permissible in Field 15c for FPLs with routes of flight entirely in U.S. domestic airspace. These are described below. Do not use these formats in an International FPL.

    Route-to-Route Transition: When a transition is planned between two (2) routes in U.S. domestic airspace, the point of transition should normally be inserted in Field 15c. The point of transition may be omitted in the following cases: When filing published Preferred Routes (NDFC Preferred Routes Database2) or Coded Departure Routes (CDM Operational Coded Departure Routes3); and When the intersection between the two (2) routes is unambiguous but not published.

    When omitting the point of transition in the portion of the route in U.S. domestic airspace, file the two (2) route names separated by a space. Transition between any combinations of the following types of routes will be supported: Published High altitude airways (J- or Q-Routes); Published Low altitude airways (V- or T-Routes); and Radial Routes.

    Note: Do not use this format/convention in the portion of the route outside domestic U.S. unless directed by the appropriate ANSP.

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