Welcome Guest. Sign in or Signup

15 Answers

Safety Pilot time for ATP cross country time

Asked by: 3441 views FAA Regulations

Can a safety pilot time be used to meet cross country aeronautical experience for ATP certificate assuming all requirements are met and all flights are  more than 50Nm?

 

Ace Any FAA Written Test!
Actual FAA Questions / Free Lifetime Updates
The best explanations in the business
Fast, efficient study.
Pass Your Checkride With Confidence!
FAA Practical Test prep that reflects actual checkrides.
Any checkride: Airplane, Helicopter, Glider, etc.
Written and maintained by actual pilot examiners and master CFIs.
The World's Most Trusted eLogbook
Be Organized, Current, Professional, and Safe.
Highly customizable - for student pilots through pros.
Free Transition Service for users of other eLogs.
Our sincere thanks to pilots such as yourself who support AskACFI while helping themselves by using the awesome PC, Mac, iPhone/iPad, and Android aviation apps of our sponsors.

15 Answers



  1. Kris Kortokrax on Oct 23, 2019

    No. The safety pilot cannot log cross country time. Further, the safety pilot may only log PIC time while the other pilot is wearing the hood.

    See the Gebhart legal interpretation.

    https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/agc/practice_areas/regulations/interpretations/Data/interps/2009/Gebhart%20-%20(2009)%20Legal%20Interpretation.pdf

    +1 Votes Thumb up 1 Votes Thumb down 0 Votes



  2. Greso on Oct 23, 2019

    The Gebhard letter of the interpretation you’ve provided addresses only the case for pilots to meet aeronautical experience for ppl ‘cpl,and instrument rating. If you check ATP cross country defenition, it doesn’t require landing, it only requires to have a flight more than 50Nm, so in my opinion, this time can be used to meet ATP cross country aeronautical experience.

    0 Votes Thumb up 0 Votes Thumb down 0 Votes



  3. Mark Kolber on Oct 23, 2019

    The FAA “might” do something about ATP if for no reason that they are not thrilled about Congress overriding their judgment on the requirements and want to give ATP candidates a break. But my reading of the entire series of Interpretations on the issue (not just parsing a single one) is that they reflect an overall policy. The FAA simply does not want safety pilot time to count for cross country time toward advanced certificates and ratings and will interpret the rules in a way that accomplishes that goal. Arguably even Gebhart goes against the specific words in the definition.

    But Since you have made your own interpretation, why ask?

    +1 Votes Thumb up 1 Votes Thumb down 0 Votes



  4. Greso on Oct 23, 2019

    I’ve expressed my opinion and want to hear other people’s opinions. I also talked to 2 FSDO about it, they agree that it can be counted toward ATP cross country time. The exact answer was how it can not be counted.

    0 Votes Thumb up 0 Votes Thumb down 0 Votes



  5. Mark Kolber on Oct 24, 2019

    I’m glad you got the answer you want. As I said, they “might” do something special for ATP.

    Hopefully, it was in writing and coordinated with the central office and not one of those inaccurate, off the cuff, deniable oral answers FSDOs have been famous for.

    +1 Votes Thumb up 1 Votes Thumb down 0 Votes



  6. Craig on Oct 24, 2019

    I would lean toward agreeing that the time you mentioned counts, if you both agreed that you were the acting as PIC while the other pilot was the sole manipulator of the controls for a duration of >= 50 NM & if you were able to log it as flight time. FAR 61.1 (vi) seems to apply in your case……..

    FAR 61.1
    Cross-country time means—
    (i) Except as provided in paragraphs (ii) through (vi) of this definition, time acquired during flight—
    (A) Conducted by a person who holds a pilot certificate;
    (B) Conducted in an aircraft;
    (C) That includes a landing at a point other than the point of departure; and
    (D) That involves the use of dead reckoning, pilotage, electronic navigation aids, radio aids, or other navigation systems to navigate to the landing point.

    (vi) For the purpose of meeting the aeronautical experience requirements for an airline transport pilot certificate (except with a rotorcraft category rating), time acquired during a flight—
    (A) Conducted in an appropriate aircraft;
    (B) That is at least a straight-line distance of more than 50 nautical miles from the original point of departure; and
    (C) That involves the use of dead reckoning, pilotage, electronic navigation aids, radio aids, or other navigation systems.

    0 Votes Thumb up 0 Votes Thumb down 0 Votes



  7. Greso on Oct 24, 2019

    Thank you, Craig. This is exactly why I think a safety time in a flight more than 50Nm long can be counted toward ATP cross country time.
    Unfortunately, many people stop reading defenitions earlier at ppl or cpl level or don\’t pay too much attention to details.

    0 Votes Thumb up 0 Votes Thumb down 0 Votes



  8. Kris Kortokrax on Oct 25, 2019

    You mean a little detail like the fact that both pilots did not make the takeoff or landing? (Even though a landing at another point isn’t required, a takeoff is required to begin a flight and a landing is required at the end of the flight)

    Or a little detail like the fact that you cannot be a safety pilot unless the other pilot is under the hood? (The other pilot will not be under the hood for the landing.)

    Don’t depend on what you might have been told by a FSDO or another pilot or an instructor. They are not authorized to make legal interpretations. That is the sole province of the Office of Legal Counsel. If you want the real answer, send them a request for a legal interpretation.

    0 Votes Thumb up 0 Votes Thumb down 0 Votes



  9. Craig on Oct 25, 2019

    https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/agc/practice_areas/regulations/interpretations/data/interps/2009/louis%20glenn%20-%20(2009)%20legal%20interpretation.pdf

    Based on the legal interpretation I just read at the website above, my previous writing may be INCORRECT. That interpretation DOES refer to FAR 61.159 regarding the ATP aeronautical experience.

    It describes several scenarios and basically indicates the safety pilot cannot log cross country time when he / she “was not a required flight crewmember for the entire flight” (i.e. including takeoff and / or landing), unless that 2nd pilot was also required under something like a part 121, 135, etc. operation.

    0 Votes Thumb up 0 Votes Thumb down 0 Votes



  10. Kris Kortokrax on Oct 25, 2019

    One other little detail. If the flight is operated in actual instrument conditions, there is no regulatory requirement for a safety pilot. Under those circumstances, only one pilot could log PIC and X-C.

    0 Votes Thumb up 0 Votes Thumb down 0 Votes



  11. Kris Kortokrax on Oct 25, 2019

    Craig,

    Although 61.159 is mentioned, it appears to say that the scenario presented does not apply to 61.159, because the scenario describes landing at two other airports.

    This still doesn’t mean that Gresco’s scenario would allow counting safety pilot time as X-C.

    If a landing is made at a point other than the departure airport, it would seem that the logic in Gebhart would still apply. This is something that Legal Counsel would have to sort out.

    0 Votes Thumb up 0 Votes Thumb down 0 Votes



  12. Craig on Oct 25, 2019

    My opinion is irrelevant, but, at least in regard to ATP aeronautical experience, I would have to disagree with opinion letter(s) from my previously posted weblink since the ATP cross country aeronautical experience (FAR 61.1(b) part vi) definition seems to be an exception or has a different definition than that for the general cross-country flight time definition.

    Part vi regarding ATP aeronautical experience defines cross country time as “time acquired during a flight” and does NOT include any wording regarding a takeoff or landing. The general definition does include the words “includes a landing”, but again, part vi is an exception to the general definition. The definitions do NOT seem to have changed b/w the 2009 opinion letter an today.

    One may argue the definition of “flight” time. It’s defined in FAR 1.1 as “Pilot time that commences when an aircraft moves under its own power for the purpose of flight and ends when the aircraft comes to rest after landing”. To me, the “flight time” definition does NOT require it to include a landing, but includes the landing time, when relevant.

    The 2009 interpretation I posted above seems to be referencing the technicality of a safety pilot being a “required crewmember” during the takeoff and/or landing phase, which, in their opinion, is a component of the “entire flight”. I could envision a 0/0 SIFR takeoff requiring a safety pilot, but a landing?

    IMO, I think that’s somewhat illogical. One could fly a straight line 700 NM flight and be safety pilot for all of the flight except for the final landing and, according to the interp, the safety pilot cannot log any of it as cross-country time. Hopefully, the FAA or Office of Chief Counsel will clarify the rules or provide an interp to provide a more logical view and at least allow the safety pilot time that was for >50NM as count as cross country time. I know my opinion is irrelevant.

    All that said, I’m sure others have counted and at least some DPE’s have accept it as cross-country time.

    FAR 61.1(b)
    Cross-country time means—
    (i) Except as provided in paragraphs (ii) through (vi) of this definition, time acquired during flight—
    (A) Conducted by a person who holds a pilot certificate;
    (B) Conducted in an aircraft;
    (C) That includes a landing at a point other than the point of departure; and
    (D) That involves the use of dead reckoning, pilotage, electronic navigation aids, radio aids, or other navigation systems to navigate to the landing point.

    (vi) For the purpose of meeting the aeronautical experience requirements for an airline transport pilot certificate (except with a rotorcraft category rating), time acquired during a flight—
    (A) Conducted in an appropriate aircraft;
    (B) That is at least a straight-line distance of more than 50 nautical miles from the original point of departure; and
    (C) That involves the use of dead reckoning, pilotage, electronic navigation aids, radio aids, or other navigation systems.

    FAR 1.1
    Flight time means:
    (1) Pilot time that commences when an aircraft moves under its own power for the purpose of flight and ends when the aircraft comes to rest after landing; or

    0 Votes Thumb up 0 Votes Thumb down 0 Votes



  13. Craig on Oct 25, 2019

    Sorry, I posted too fast before reading the end of the 2009 opinion letter in which the next to last paragraph reads “In the context of meeting aeronautical experience requirements under 61.159, the controlling definition in 61.1(b)3)(vi) does not require a landing but only a flight that is at least a straight line distance of more than 50 nautical miles from the original point of departure.”

    If one wants to argue the takeoff portion of flight, again, I was the safety pilot for a 0/0 SIFR takeoff……

    Overall, for ATP aeronautical experience, it seems one can log safety pilot time as XC time as long as it meets the distance and other requirements……

    Sorry for the multiple posts…..

    0 Votes Thumb up 0 Votes Thumb down 0 Votes



  14. Mark Kolber on Oct 26, 2019

    Craig, if nothing else, don’t your multiple posts show how unsure the “yes you can do it” position is?

    Here’s the real problem. The definitions of cross country in 61.1 all talk about “time acquired during a flight” which meets certain conditions. There is nothing in the wording of the definitions which requires the pilot logging the flight to do anything but be there and permitted to log some flight time in order to log it as cross country. No requirement she be required crew for all of it. No requirement he ever touch the controls.

    Permitted to log time + a flight which meets the definition = log the time as xc.

    Nevertheless, in a whole series of scenarios, the FAA has imposed those requirements, and more. That’s why I describe them as less pure “legal” interpretations than interpretations made to support a policy decision to require (1) a pilot to complete the entire flight in order to log it as cross country and (2) to allow only one pilot to log cross country on a given flight. This is not the only area where interpretation follows policy.

    So, the bottom line here is not how well one can parse the words of the rule and of prior interpretations to get a result. The bottom line is how the FAA *wants* to interpret it. As I said earlier, I can see the FAA making an exception for the ATP-qualifying cross country I can also see the FAA sticking to its “only one pilot logs” policy.

    +1 Votes Thumb up 1 Votes Thumb down 0 Votes



  15. Craig on Oct 26, 2019

    I WAS unsure BEFORE I read the 2009 legal interp.

    14 CFR § 61.159 provides the regulations for aeronautical experience for an ATP certificate. As I mentioned, in the next to last paragraph of the 2009 legal interp MacPherson specifically indicates “under § 61.159, the controlling definition in § 61.1(b)(3)(vi) does not require a landing but only a flight…”, so I stand by my previous opinion.

    https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/agc/practice_areas/regulations/interpretations/data/interps/2009/louis%20glenn%20-%20(2009)%20legal%20interpretation.pdf

    0 Votes Thumb up 0 Votes Thumb down 0 Votes


Answer Question

Our sincere thanks to all who contribute constructively to this forum in answering flight training questions. If you are a flight instructor or represent a flight school / FBO offering flight instruction, you are welcome to include links to your site and related contact information as it pertains to offering local flight instruction in a specific geographic area. Additionally, direct links to FAA and related official government sources of information are welcome. However we thank you for your understanding that links to other sites or text that may be construed as explicit or implicit advertising of other business, sites, or goods/services are not permitted even if such links nominally are relevant to the question asked.