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7 Answers

Can the 3 hours of XC be done concurrently with instrument training for a PPL?

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FAA Regulations, Student Pilot

My student pilot recently completed their first solo flight, and we are moving on to xc training for the solo xc endorsement.  The solo xc endorsement requires training in flight by instruments. My question is, can I combine xc and instrument training, and will it count toward both time requirements, of 3 hours of xc training and 3 hours of instrument?  For example, if we do a flight using VOR navigation to an airport 55nm away, land, and on the return flight my student is under the foggles, does the return flight time count toward both xc and instrument requirements?  Thank you in advance for your answers and insight.

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7 Answers



  1. Kris Kortokrax on Nov 04, 2018

    If you are using VOR to navigate, you are performing radio navigation, which is not pilotage or dead reckoning.

    You have to look at the intent of the regulation.

    3 hours of training on controlling the airplane by reference to the instruments in 61.93 requires straight and level flight, turns, descents, climbs, use of radio aids, and ATC directives. If your student has not received any instrument training before, how adept will he be at flying the cross country leg under the foggles? What kind of flight planning will he do for that leg? Or will he simply follow the magenta line? Will he be under the hood immediately after takeoff until it is time to land?

    The requirements in 61.109 require more than 61.93. (straight and level flight, constant airspeed climbs and descents, turns to a heading, recovery from unusual flight attitudes, radio communications, and the use of navigation systems/facilities and radar services appropriate to instrument flight).

    What experience will the student be gaining toward VFR cross country flying while under the foggles? While it can be logged as cross country flight, could you really call it cross country training?

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  2. Dustin on Nov 04, 2018

    @Kris Kortokrax, while possibly some good thought questions for how I structure training on these topics, your response doesn’t answer my question. I haven’t found any clarity through the regs, but was pointed to the LOI database and have read a number of letters there that seem to indicate they can be coupled.

    If anyone else has any LOIs or regs they want to point me to, please do so. Thanks in advance.

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  3. Mitchell L Williams on Nov 05, 2018

    Kris answered with rhetorical questions with lead to the obvious answer of NO.

    I have had my students put a hood on during the last leg of a private training cross country:
    1. Because the student probably already knows the local area – he’s been practicing in it,
    2. we did a bunch of pilotage, ded reckoning, and Radio nav for the first two legs.
    3. Only one hour of instrument training is required before the first solo XC.

    As a true believer, I try to do a little instrument instruction on each pre solo flight. Usually, at the end I’ll have them put a hood on and I give headings back to the airport; make them turn a 180 so simulate flying into clouds.

    Then I reserve some of the hood training for check ride preparation – Unusual attitudes, tracking VOR, and basic attitude flying.

    mitch

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  4. Dustin on Nov 05, 2018

    Thanks Mitchell, that’s how I’ve approached it. My student’s first instrument lesson was definitely not his first exposure to flight by instruments, I’ve trickled in a little here and there, along with radio nav, during return flights from other lessons.

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  5. Russ Roslewski on Nov 06, 2018

    Mitch,
    “3. Only one hour of instrument training is required before the first solo XC.”

    Is this a personal requirement? I don’t see anything about this in 61.93. e(12) requires “some” instrument training, but does not state how much.

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  6. Mark Kolber on Nov 09, 2018

    Fir a simple answer…

    There is nothing I know of which precludes including hood time on dual cross country flights (and many good reasons to include it) and no reason why it would not count for both.

    (I am not assuming you are talking about a student dual cross country which is 100% under the hood, which would raise the issues Kris talks about)

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  7. Dustin on Nov 09, 2018

    @Mark, correct, this is NOT 100% under the hood. It’s an XC flight with a portion of the flight under the hood. I have created a syllabus for me and my students based on the FAA FITS template, and was looking through that yesterday and was reminded that a few of the lesson plans in that template combine xc and hood time. I think that speaks very loudly to what the FAA thinks of combining the two activities.

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