Fees for Undocumented Ground Time

3 Answers

1. 
   

   
   

   John D Collins on Aug 30, 2018

   I have excerpted two FAA regulations that govern the logging of ground time and instructor endorsements. These would apply to any ground training actually provided by the instructor. If he actually provided ground instruction, he should have logged it and signed the entry.

   Regarding how the instructor determines his fees, this is a business matter between the instructor and the student.or party he contracted with. For example, I charge for my time based on my watch. Some may charge for total scheduled time. Others may charge just for flight time or o o o.

   It is sloppy if the instructor does not log all the training time given, especially if he is to be paid on the basis of the entries. If the instructor is looking for additional money, I would say he is probably out of luck and should have done a better job of logging the time. If you are looking for a partial refund, you are probably out of luck.

   §61.51 Pilot logbooks.

   (a) Training time and aeronautical experience. Each person must document and record the following time in a manner acceptable to the Administrator:

   (1) Training and aeronautical experience used to meet the requirements for a certificate, rating, or flight review of this part.

   o o o

   (b) Logbook entries. For the purposes of meeting the requirements of paragraph (a) of this section, each person must enter the following information for each flight or lesson logged:

   (1) General—

   (i) Date.

   (ii) Total flight time or lesson time.

   o o o

   (2) Type of pilot experience or training—

   o o o

   (iv) Flight and ground training received from an authorized instructor.

   Sec. 61.189 Flight instructor records.

   (a) A flight instructor must sign the logbook of each person to whom that instructor has given flight training or ground training.

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2. 
   

   
   

   Russ Roslewski on Aug 30, 2018

   The instructor’s actions don’t _necessarily_ indicate any underhandedness or trying to bilk you of any money. They could just be an example of inadequate business practices.

   It is not unusual to have a lot of undocumented ground time. I think what I do is fairly typical: If we are together for 2 hours, I bill 2 hours. Let’s say that we flew for 1.3 hours. The remaining 0.7 hours was occupied with pre and post-flight discussion about what we were doing that day, as well as getting in the airplane, startup, shutdown, putting it away, filling out the logbook, etc. Generally I will NOT, in this case, actually log any ground instruction in the logbook. There’s no real performance-monitoring or tracking benefit to doing it.

   If, on the other hand, we are doing some more-involved ground instruction, like a lesson on how to plan a long flight, or how to interpret weather information, that DOES get logged as ground instruction.

   I do believe this is fairly typical in the business.

   However, I CAN easily produce a detailed invoice for you from my records, and have done so more than once. I will have in my records that on 8/30/18 I charged you for 2.0 hours. In other words, not just the 1.3 we flew. But that is a matter of good business record-keeping, which quite frankly many CFIs are not very good at.

   I just looked at my records, and for some students I have in fact charged for 40-50 hours in addition to flight time (again, most of it not logged as “ground instruction”). So it’s not necessarily out of line, however whether 50 hours is a good guess in your son’s case I’m not able to say.

   Sloppy record-keeping? Yes. Attempt to overcharge? Not necessarily.

   +2 Votes 2 Votes  0 Votes

3. 
   

   
   

   Toby Rice on Sep 13, 2018

   I’m sorry that you’re experiencing this issue with your son’s instructor.

   Personally, I charge for the time on the Hobbs meter PLUS any “ground” discussion that goes over around ~15-20 minutes. I don’t count the preflight or postflight (except any initial training on those areas). However, if I spend 45 minutes talking about landings, he’s gonna get a bill. But if we’re just chewing the fat or doing a brief (15 min-ish) review, I won’t worry about it. I try to be pretty decent about charging for this stuff. I understand how expensive flight training is and I want to cut the new guys some slack. That being said, my time is worth something, and if I can’t justify sitting around unpaid during a lesson, I’ll let the guy or gal know up front that the clock will be running. I might be overthinking it, but it seems to be working just fine.

   I don’t get why people want to suck every penny out of their students. I understand that one has to make a living, but you’ll make more money in the long run if you charge your students reasonably and them cut slack where needed. One of the main reasons for wash outs in aviation is the cost. High prices aren’t motivating students to learn to fly. Charging $90/hr for ground time, $170/hr for the plane, and $65/hr for flight time isn’t gonna make your student want to come back as much as charging $50/hr flat rate plus the plane. You may not make as much money up front, but you’ll keep those students.

   Like I said, maybe I’m over thinking this. I get the cost of living comes into play, but let’s try to get people to come back for the next lesson instead of scaring them off with ridiculous rates! My 2¢.

   +3 Votes 3 Votes  0 Votes