Welcome Guest. Sign in or Signup

6 Answers

Procedure Turn Outbound timing.

Asked by: 11115 views Commercial Pilot, FAA Regulations, Flight Instructor, General Aviation, Instrument Rating

Hello Everyone,

I am not sure if this is only used in our school or not, but I writing to clarify the myth behind the outbound timing on procedure turn.

https://ko.flightaware.com/resources/airport/KDAB/IAP/VOR+RWY+16

Let us say that we are shooting the approach above, VOR16 a@ KDAB and the VOR is located outside the KDAB. So, upon crossing the VOR, I was taught to fly outbound for 1min, since it is non-terminal(NAVAID not based @ KDAB) and initiate the procedure turn. I have look through the AIM and there were no pertinent information regarding 1min/2min rule.

Can anyone provide me with credible sources or explain how these came up?

 

Steve

6 Answers



  1. Russ Roslewski on Jun 17, 2016

    There is no requirement to go out 1 minute. In fact, there is no requirement for any specific set of procedures to follow at all, as long as you do two things:

    1. Do your maneuvering on the side of the outbound course indicated by the PT barb.
    2. Stay within the distance specified (usually 10 nm).

    There are many cases where you will want to go out more than 1 minute either to ensure you’re aligned on the inbound course or for descent gradient. See this approach: https://skyvector.com/files/tpp/1606/pdf/05273VA.PDF (KSEG VOR-A).

    If you only go outbound 1 minute, then you basically have a minute once inbound to descend 1500 feet from 3400 to 1900. That’s steep! But go out 2 minutes, or even 3, and that’s more manageable. What if the wind is from the south or southwest? Heck, you might want to go out more than 1 minute just for that, to give yourself time to get aligned on the inbound course before crossing the FAF.

    1 minute was just picked because it’s a nice general purpose number, easy to time even with analog clocks, and familiar from holding patterns.

    If you want, go out just 30 seconds and do the procedure turn. Got to be on your game though, to get re-established inbound in time.

    +8 Votes Thumb up 8 Votes Thumb down 0 Votes



  2. Jim MacKay on Jun 17, 2016

    Good question and good answer.
    The 1 minute on the procedure turn is stated on the actual procedure. Granted the procedure turn is also a hold at KOKB (Oceanside Muni) so it would be consistent with hold.
    As a CFII, I am in the procedure turn at this airport almost daily, if I want a 1.5 or 2 min at this VOR I simply can request it from approach, and unless there is conflicting traffic its almost always given.

    0 Votes Thumb up 0 Votes Thumb down 0 Votes



  3. Matthew Waugh on Jun 17, 2016

    Jim – I’m a little confused on your answer – you say “The 1 minute on the procedure turn is stated on the actual procedure” – but I don’t see any such notation. Can you explain further?

    0 Votes Thumb up 0 Votes Thumb down 0 Votes



  4. Jim MacKay on Jun 17, 2016

    Matthew
    Thanks for the comment.
    On the VOR approach to KOKB there is a 1 min notation in the center of the hold diagram.
    If you were approaching from the north there as also a NoPt notation when you approach OCN VOR.
    Approaching from the south would be a parallel entry with a 1 min outbound.
    As always, if you believe you may need more time to get established inbound, then I would simply ask approach or advise approach you are doing a 1.5 min outbound
    Hope that helps.

    0 Votes Thumb up 0 Votes Thumb down 0 Votes



  5. Russ Roslewski on Jun 17, 2016

    Jim McKay, you’re looking at the wrong approach. The approach in question (and the one linked) is the KDAB VOR RWY 16, in Daytona Beach, FL.

    0 Votes Thumb up 0 Votes Thumb down 0 Votes



  6. John D Collins on Jun 18, 2016

    Russ nailed the requirements for the PT of the barb variety. There is no requirement to fly a specific time and the type of turn used for the course reversal is up to the pilot. So the pilot can execute a hold, or a 90/270 or 80/260 turn if they want to. So do the course reversal on the same side as the barb and keep within the 10 NM limit. What time to use is a combination of pilot technique and analysis of the situation at hand. You must start the course reversal so that you stay within the 10 NM limit and you want to leave sufficient time on the inbound course to accomplish several objectives, get established on the course and lose any altitude required to descend to the minimums at the FAF or the GS intercept altitude. So each approach requires its own analysis and one size does not fit all.

    Jim referred to a different type of PT, often called a hold in lieu of a PT. When it is charted, you must fly the charted hold for the course reversal. The time or distance shown on the chart is a maximum value that may not be exceeded without ATC permission, but you are not required to use the full time or distance unless specifically cleared to do so. If you are simply cleared for the approach, you can reduce the time or distance. But if you are cleared with the instruction old one minute turns or 4 NM legs, then you must comply, but that rarely ever happens.

    +3 Votes Thumb up 3 Votes Thumb down 0 Votes


The following terms have been auto-detected the question above and any answers or discussion provided. Click on a term to see its definition from the Dauntless Aviation JargonBuster Glossary.

Answer Question

Our sincere thanks to all who contribute constructively to this forum in answering flight training questions. If you are a flight instructor or represent a flight school / FBO offering flight instruction, you are welcome to include links to your site and related contact information as it pertains to offering local flight instruction in a specific geographic area. Additionally, direct links to FAA and related official government sources of information are welcome. However we thank you for your understanding that links to other sites or text that may be construed as explicit or implicit advertising of other business, sites, or goods/services are not permitted even if such links nominally are relevant to the question asked.