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5 Answers

Commercial pilot night requirements – redundant or exclusive?

Asked by: 8770 views Commercial Pilot

My question is - Can part of the requirement of 5 hours of solo (or dual PIC) night time be fulfilled by the required 2 hours dual night xc 100 mile flight?  There seems to be redundancy here, but the FARs never seem to address these as exclusive of each other.

61.129

(4) Ten hours of solo flight time in a single engine airplane or 10 hours of flight time performing the duties of pilot in command in a single engine airplane with an authorized instructor on board (either of which may be credited towards the flight time requirement under paragraph (a)(2) of this section), on the areas of operation listed under §61.127(b)(1) that include—

(ii) 5 hours in night VFR conditions .....

and

(3) 20 hours of training on the areas of operation listed in §61.127(b)(1) of this part that includes at least—

(iv) One 2-hour cross country flight in a single engine airplane in nighttime conditions that consists of a total straight-line distance of more than 100 nautical miles from the original point of departure; 

Thanks for any help.

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5 Answers



  1. Kris Kortokrax on Dec 22, 2014

    There is no redundancy.

    The 2 hour XC flight is a dual instruction flight (required training from an instructor).

    The 5 hours of night solo may be accomplished solo or “while performing the duties of PIC…with an authorized instructor on board”. This is not “dual PIC”. You may not log it as dual. Since we are talking about a single engine airplane, you almost certainly are rated for the aircraft and therefore can log PIC.

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  2. John D Collins on Dec 22, 2014

    61.129(a)(3)(iv) is a training flight and requires dual instruction for the 2 hour night cross country. You log it as dual, night, cross country. The instructor logs it as dual given, PIC, night.

    61.129(a)(ii) is not a training flight and normally is conducted as solo. However provisions are made so that the student can be “performing the duties of pilot in command in a single engine airplane with an authorized instructor on board”. The instructor is not providing dual instruction. The duties of PIC are being performed by the student. This provision was added by the FAA as a recognition that in many cases insurance companies would not insure the aircraft (typically a multi engine aircraft or helicopter) for solo flight by a non rated pilot. The student logs the time as PIC and I would add a note indicating 61.129(a)(4) performing the duties of PIC with CFI on board.

    There are several current opinions on the topic that you might want to review.

    http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/agc/pol_adjudication/agc200/interpretations/data/interps/2014/kuhn%20-%20(2014)%20legal%20interpretation.pdf

    http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/agc/pol_adjudication/agc200/interpretations/data/interps/2013/crowe-palmbeachhelicopters%20-%20(2013)%20legal%20interpretation.pdf

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  3. Kris Kortokrax on Dec 22, 2014

    John,

    Your answer appears to be a general statement, rather than directed to Kevin’s situation.

    According to Crowe, the student may only log PIC if he is rated for category & class. This is almost certainly the case for Kevin, but for people doing cross category training it might not be true and they cannot log PIC time.

    This whole “performing the duties” thing was not very well thought out. While a person may credit the “performing the duties” time toward the PIC time requirements of 61.129(a)(2), (b)(2), (c)(2), etc., only 10 hours may be credited.

    In the instance of a person seeking to add a Commercial Helicopter rating to an existing certificate, he needs 35 hours of PIC in a helicopter. He can credit 10 hours of “performing the duties” time toward the 35 hours. The only way he can get the remaining 25 hours of PIC (since he is not rated for helicopters), is to be the sole occupant of the helicopter. The FAA didn’t really solve the insurance problem.

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  4. Mark Kolber on Dec 22, 2014

    “Performing the duties” as a solo replacement made its first powered flight appearance in the commercial multi to deal with a practical problem – the inability of commercial multi students to fly solo due to insurance requirements.

    It was later expanded to cover the rest of the certificates and ratings on dual theories of the existence of other aircraft with high insurance requirements and some sense of rating requirement parity.

    As a solo substitute that isn’t really solo and isn’t really instruction, the interpretations fitting it into the FAR 61.51 logging paradigm (at this point covered primarily by the 2014 Kuhn interpretation) have definitely been interesting. The student can’t log PIC unless already rated since it’s not really “solo” (only person on board). The student also doesn’t log it as dual received because it’s not supposed to be instruction. But the instructor does get to log PIC time because, while it’s not instruction, she is “serving as the authorized instructor” which is all that’s required under 61.51 for instructor PIC logging.

    How well thought out it was beyond the original purpose is good fodder for argument.

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  5. Kevin Wright on Dec 22, 2014

    Thanks for the excellent answers! This provides the clarity that I couldn’t find anywhere else in my searching. I just wish the FARs themselves were as clear and concise.
    I can see how the regs evolved and got muddied up by insurance requirements. The Kuhn interpretation is a good one to refer to in the future.

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