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4 Answers

Flying over class Bravo airspace.

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Airspace

I fly an RV6 out of Caldwell, New Jersey, and frequently take people around New York city, picking up a Bravo clearance from Newark and maintaining 1,500 in the Bravo all around Manhattan. I have done this probably 50 times and it never gets old, but I'm interested in a new view of the city.

The New York city Bravo goes up to only 7,000 feet MSL, so in theory I could just fly VFR at 7,500 up the Hudson without talking to approach. This would, of course, be dumb and irresponsible, since all kinds of departures from LGA, TEB, JFK and EWR are going to be climbing out of the top. So I'd like to work with the approach controllers to keep everyone safe and separated.

Does anyone have any experience of doing this, and have any words of wisdom to impart? Specifically: are there times of day, wind directions, and routings to stick to or avoid?

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4 Answers



  1. Kris Kortokrax on Nov 20, 2014

    Matthew,

    Have you looked at 91.319(c) and your airplane’s Operating Limitations?

    91.319(c) states:

    “Unless otherwise authorized by the Administrator in special operating limitations, no person may operate an aircraft that has an experimental certificate over a densely populated area or in a congested airway. The Administrator may issue special operating limitations for particular aircraft to permit takeoffs and landings to be conducted over a densely populated area or in a congested airway, in accordance with terms and conditions specified in the authorization in the interest of safety in air commerce.”

    The boilerplate for Operating Limitations for Experimental Amateur built aircraft in Order 8130.2G reads:

    “(6) This aircraft is prohibited from operating in congested airways or over densely populated areas unless directed by air traffic control, or unless sufficient altitude is maintained to effect a safe emergency landing in the event of a power unit failure, without hazard to persons or property on the ground.”

    The FAA in the Operating Limitations has loosed up a bit over the requirements in the reg, but at 1500 feet over the New York area, I think you would be hard pressed to make a landing without hazard to persons or property on the ground. For that matter, would you be able to make a safe landing from 1500 feet if the engine in a Cessna 172 failed? With about a 9 to 1 glide ratio for the 172, from 1500 feet you could glide about 13,500 feet (or about 2.25 NM). That would be if you had an unobstructed area to glide in. Over New York, you would most likely collide with the side of a building before you glided 2.25 miles.

    Disclaimer: I don’t know the glide ratio of an RV6.

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  2. Koehn on Nov 20, 2014

    For a visual depiction, look on FlightAware for actual arrival and departure routes. If you know how to read the plates, listen on the radio or LiveATC and get to know those routes (listen for “climb via” and “descend via”, but this will require you to check quite a few frequencies and may not be practical around NYC).

    Honestly though, the world isn’t all that amazing from 7500′ AGL, and it’s a lot of fuel and time just to get there. Most people fly VFR over a Bravo for transitions where there’s a geographical limitation (e.g., Chicago, where you don’t want to fly over Lake Michigan outside of gliding range of shore), but working with approach is certainly prudent. Otherwise I alter course and go around; it only adds a minute or two to the flight.

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  3. Felix on Nov 21, 2014

    Why would this be dumb and irresponsible? I think it’s perfectly safe as long as you stay above the Class B and avoid steep turns over the Freedom tower. See and avoid and you are completely fine. I fly out of Caldwell too, and I’ve climbed above the Class B plenty of times.

    Aside from 91.319(c) (which is great point), go and climb above the Class B and fly any path you want. There is not a single airliner at 7500 over the NYC big three, because they are all inside the Class B.

    Getting flight following is not a big deal either. After departing CDW ask for a frequency change, call up NY app on 127.6, and tell them what you want to do.

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  4. Felix on Nov 21, 2014

    I think I know you…yellow RV parked near the Fischer airplanes?

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