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6 Answers

Hours Needed and is Instructing Necessary?

Asked by: 3169 views , , , ,
Commercial Pilot, FAA Regulations, Flight Instructor, Helicopter, Student Pilot

Hi there,

   I am soon to be starting my rotor wing training and I'm trying to do as much research as possible before hand. My main goals of the research are to: 1)Make sure I do not run out of funds and 2)Meet all the requirements to be able to start a career in this industry. I've got 106 f/w training hours logged from about 15 years ago, and do NOT hold a private pilot. Those hours met all the requirements at the time and I was scheduled for my private pilot test ride.

   My questions are:

  1. How many helicopter specific time hours are required to obtain a CFI/II?
  2. How many helicopter specific time hours are required to work as a CFI/II?
  3. I understand minimums are not always the actual time it can take someone to be able to perform the skills required. Will my previous hours contribute to any savings in my training if I'm proficient and can complete everything within the minimums?
  4. Why does the U.S. model of progression go from learning to instructing and skip working in the industry? In my research I'm finding it to be rare to find a job other than instructing here in the U.S. until you've reached what I see as an arbitrary total time that insurance companies will accept. I'm willing to instruct and will enjoy it if I go that route. I'm curious about other possibilities, as well, wondering why one way of going about it is so prevalent, and would like to learn about other ways of getting into the industry.

   I am also learning in my research, and in all life's endeavors, to be humble. I have my opinion (and am open to changing it), and I'm hoping to hear more than just mine, as I know I don't have all the information. I appreciate any information in regards to my questions, and definitely any input in regards to my last question/statement.

   My ultimate goal is to understand what I'm getting in to so I can give it everything I've got and make the absolute best out of it. Ultimately, being able to fly is an incredible opportunity, and the fact that we have that as an option to also make a living I am grateful for.

   Thanks!

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6 Answers



  1. LTCTerry on Sep 05, 2019

    Google 14 CFR Part 61.129 for flight time/experience requirements for a commercial certificate.

    The US has a rather vibrant general aviation community. People learn to fly for fun. This traditionally has meant instructors would (barely) make a living and build time to be competitive for other jobs. This model has worked in the US for years. Congress changed the law some years ago, requiring an ATP (1500 hours) rather than just a commercial ticket for the right seat in Part 121 flying. Europe and most of the rest of the world has little/no general aviation. Their model has 250-hour pilots in the right seat of an Airbus or Boeing 737.

    There is zero shortage of helicopter pilots in the US. I think the Army trains more each year than are needed to fill any civilian needs. Why would anyone hire a helicopter pilot with 250 hours in an R22 when there\’s a guy with 2000 hours starting in Jet Rangers then Apaches, Blackhawks, or Chinooks looking for a job flying? Not a rhetorical question. You should consider that before spending a ton of money.

    Ex-Army helicopter pilots have no trouble finding airline jobs in airplanes. If there were helicopter jobs…

    I have read comments from people on helicopter blogs lamenting the fact that the only job(s) they see available to them are training the next wave of rotorywing instructors who will be willing to work even cheaper to get a job.

    I have one hour of bootleg time in an Oh-58, so not a helicopter pilot. Just sharing what I know and what I\’ve read. I would encourage anyone thinking about self-funded r/w flight training to think long and hard about the risk and return on investment. I think the options are far better and cheaper in fixed wing flying.

    There is a knowledgeable helicopter instructor who\’s quite active here. I\’m sure he\’ll have practical advice to share.

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  2. KDS on Sep 06, 2019

    All that stuff that LTC Terry said ……….. DITTO.

    If you think it is bad now, you should have seen it after the war in Vietnam wound down and the pilots from that big buildup were out of service, high time, and still very young.

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  3. Roadtoknowhere on Sep 06, 2019

    LTCTerry and KDS,
    Thanks for giving this your best shot at answering. I hear your opinion about joining the military, as I’ve heard it a lot. As far as everything else:
    Part 61.129 states the minimums for a Commercial Rating; I was asking about CFI ratings, helicopter specific. I understand you need a Commercial Rating in order to work as a CFI, and I could have elaborated in that I am trying to find out if there are minimums for helicopter specific time before you can obtain a CFI rating in addition to your Commercial. After speaking to a Rotary Wing Instructor in person (yesterday), I have found that your answer is part of it, as stated above, and that with his employer it requires an additional 50 hours of helicopter specific time, bringing the total needed time to 200 hours, with 100 hours of helicopter in my case. 50 for Commercial, 50 for CFI. I cannot find any FAR’s stating this as a requirement, though, and am looking for direction in finding that.

    To the rest of the first two questions, I also asked about a CFII, and if there is a difference between getting the ratings and insurance requirements to work as a CFI/CFII. It seems I was not clear enough with what I was asking. Again, according to this instructor’s employer, this would require 40 hours total instrument time (for instrument rating), some of which (~10hrs) would be done during private and commercial training. So that leaves 30 additional instrument hours in order to obtain an instrument rating. After that, to obtain a CFII there is no minimum and it is based on proficiency demonstrated. If there is an actual helicopter pilot and CFI/II out there that can speak to this, maybe the one LTCTerry mentioned, please do so. I would greatly appreciate your input.

    To my 3rd and 4th questions. They were left unanswered.

    I mentioned being open to opinions, and I was referring to Helicopters and how to navigate training, not fixed wing or trying to work in the fixed wing side of it. Again, LTC offered the military and I appreciate that opinion in relation to helicopters. I also mentioned striving to be humble and here I will say that I appreciate your efforts to respond, although it seems that my question sparked an opportunity for you two to vent about something I wasn’t asking about, in regards to a side of the industry you are not involved in, and use my question as a platform for that, which was unappreciated.

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  4. KDS on Sep 07, 2019

    Actually, I wasn’t attempting to answer you. I was responding to LTCTerry.

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  5. LTCTerry on Sep 09, 2019

    Roadtonowhere –

    I wasn’t suggesting you join the military. Far from it. I’ll address that in a moment.

    FARs define the minimum aeronautical experience for a private certificate.

    FARs define the minimum aeronautical experience for an instrument rating.

    FARs define the minimum aeronautical experience for a commercial certificate.

    FARs define the required training for CFI.

    FARs define the required training for CFII.

    The above together define the milestones towards the minimum for what you asked.

    Notice “required training” vs. “minimum requirements.”

    The legal “minimum hours” you are looking for would be whatever it takes to get to the requirements to be a commercial pilot. Once you have that, it’s train to PTS/ACS standards.

    If the requirements say “flight time” or “total hours” then your 106 hours count. If it says “in a rotary wing aircraft” then your time does not count.

    Minimum is not a useful concept. The minimum, for example, to become an ASEL Private Pilot is 40 hours (Part 61). The national average is about 60. You have 106 and no certificate… Based on that, you might want to assume starting from zero for a r/w program.

    Military – no, I wasn’t suggesting joining the military. I was politely trying to say “you ain’t gonna get no job because your competition is highly experienced with lots of hours doing heavy lift, in heavy weather, in complex helicopters.” Did you see that picture of the R22 “hovering” in Afghanistan with one skid in the air and one on a shack’s roof rescuing people? No? Oh, wait. That was an Army Chinook. In combat. That’s your competition for jobs.

    Pilots leave the Army and can’t find jobs. There are too many of them for the jobs available. The job you want will be filled by someone who flew for five years after completing flight school with more hours/experience than your training will give you.

    That’s just the Army PILOTS. What about the veterans? Veterans earn GI Bill benefits they can use for education. Many choose to spend their money on flight training (VA funds 60% of required training after Private, up to a certain limit.) Some of these Veterans choose r/w flight training.

    The VA will only fund training at an approved school. One of the conditions for approval is a significant proportion of students in the program must be non-VA to ensure competitive pricing. If the program you are looking at is VA approved, consider that they may be telling you what you want to hear just to get you in so they make the numbers to get the well paying VA students…

    From what I have read online, you will be able to get certificates. You will be able to get the program you went through to hire you as an instructor. But beyond that, it’s highly unlikely that you will find a “real” job in the helicopter industry. I’m sure it does happen though.

    While you’re flying 30 hours a month in an R22, some guy/gal with 1000 hours on NVGs with people trying to kill him is going to get the next available job.

    So, a review of the FARs will tell you what’s required legally. I’m just being the blunt guy suggesting you not spend your money. Maybe I just saved you $60,000. But that will stimulate the economy and keep one more instructor employed for a while.

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  6. KDS on Sep 09, 2019

    LTC Terry –

    That is the second complete answer along with excellent advice you have provided in just this one thread.

    As it happens, I was reading an article arguing why America should forgive student loan debts before I clicked over here. Your words are not only excellent advice regarding aviation, they are ones that should be taken to heart by everyone contemplating college. Racking up $100K in student loan debt to obtain a B.A. in Comparative French Literature is folly, but there are few if any colleges that would caution students before accepting their money. The same is true of flight schools.

    As always, thank you for your service to our country.

    KDS

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