Can MEI only instructor teach part 61 MEI add on course?

7 Answers

1. 
   

   
   

   Russ Roslewski on Jun 02, 2017

   In my reading of part 61, I think you’d be fine.

   From 61.195:

   (c)Instrument Rating. A flight instructor who provides instrument training for the issuance of an instrument rating, a type rating not limited to VFR, or the instrument training required for commercial pilot and airline transport pilot certificates must hold an instrument rating on his or her pilot certificate and flight instructor certificate that is appropriate to the category and class of aircraft used for the training provided.

   Notice that a CFI only has to have an instrument rating on their CFI certificate to train for:
   – an instrument rating
   – type rating not VFR
   – instrument training for the Commercial
   – instrument training for the ATP

   It says nothing about instrument training toward an MEI, so for this reason it doesn’t seem to be required.

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2. 
   

   
   

   Kris Kortokrax on Jun 02, 2017

   I looked and looked through the PTS for Flight Instructor – Single and Multi engine.
   I cannot find anywhere that it requires any instrument approach.

   On page 155, it does require that you demonstrate an “Approach and Landing with an Inoperative Engine”, however, it mentions nothing about doing it only by reference to the instruments. Go ahead and look outside.

   Based on the absence of instrument tasks (except for the capability to teach flight by reference to the instruments to a Private applicant), there is no need for your instructor to hold an instrument rating on his Flight Instructor certificate.

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3. 
   

   
   

   Ray Salmon on Jun 03, 2017

   I’m going to hold the opposite position on this one. Essentially your Flight Instructor – Instrument Rating (CFII) is only valid for single engine aircraft since you have not received any training on, nor been checked on multi-engine instrument operations as a flight instructor.

   61.187(b)(7) For an instrument rating with the appropriate aircraft category [b] and class[/b].

   61.187 (c) The flight training required by this section may be accomplished:
   (1) In an aircraft that is representative of the category [b]and class[/b] of aircraft for the rating sought

   Additionally, you did not complete tasks C and D of AOA IX on your CFII practical test.

   As a result, for your MEI practical test you are going to have to demonstrate proficiency in those areas (even though they are in a different PTS book) since you are no doubt looking to use those privileges.

   Since 61.187(b)(7) requires you to receive training for an instrument rating on your instructor certificate that is class specific and is conducted in a class specific airplane, you will need to be demonstrate to the inspector/examiner that you have this training through logbook entries.

   The instrument rating on a flight instructor certificate is still an instrument rating, (albeit on a flight instructor certificate vs pilot certificate) and would therefore fall under the restriction that only a CFII could give that instruction, since in effect you are “finishing up” your CFII by completing those class-specific items that you did not complete earlier.

   So in my opinion, your instructor would need to hold a CFII in order to endorse the class-specific items of the training required by 61.187(b)(7).

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4. 
   

   
   

   Kris Kortokrax on Jun 03, 2017

   There is a difference between the instrument rating placed on a pilot certificate and the instrument rating placed on a flight instructor certificate.

   There is a provision in Order 8900.1 and 8900.2, as well as the old Instrument PTS (which is no longer valid) and the new Instrument ACS which will become valid on June 12, 2017 for a limitation (Multiengine limited to VFR only) to be placed on a pilot certificate if the applicant has not demonstrated a single engine approach in a multiengine airplane.

   There is no such provision concerning the Instrument-Airplane rating placed on a flight instructor certificate.

   If the FAA limits one’s privileges in any way, it does so by printing a limitation on the appropriate certificate. Similarly, there will never be a limitation stating “Limited to Center Thrust” placed on a flight instructor certificate. Some years ago there were several flight instructor certificates issued based on military competence to individuals who had instructed in aircraft such as the T-38. They were issued with the center thrust limitation. Those certificates were recalled and reissued with only the Instrument Rating.

   There will also never be a case where one would be taking a practical test that would need to reference two different PTS and/or ACS. A DPE cannot test anything that is not contained within the PTS/ACS that pertains to the test at hand.

   The instructor who holds a Flight Instructor certificate with only the Airplane Multiengine rating can give all the instruction required to be given to the poster.

   Note that the wording in 61.187(b)(7) is “may be accomplished”, not “must be accomplished”. The PTS merely states that if one is crazy enough to show up for the Instrument Instructor test with a multiengine airplane, he must demonstrate tasks C and D. Nowhere is it stated that he cannot be issued the rating without demonstrating those tasks. Further, there is no statement anywhere requiring a person to demonstrate those tasks at any future date.

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5. 
   

   
   

   Ray Salmon on Jun 04, 2017

   The argument regarding the absence of a VFR only limitation for the CFII as well as the instance you cited regarding the military instructors would be the strongest indicators of the FAA’s interpretation – that additional training/checking is not required.

   Having said that, ASIs conducting flight instructor practical tests are not limited in the way you said DPEs were:

   8900.1 Vol 5 Ch2 Sec 11 5-501 Although ASIs judge an applicant’s performance by the flight instructor PTS, they may also require an applicant to demonstrate skill and knowledge from other PTS, such as private pilot, commercial pilot, and instrument rating.

   The ASI that conducted my MEI pratical test required I demonstrate Tasks C and D from the CFII PTS, although that was 13+ years ago.

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6. 
   

   
   

   Ray Salmon on Jun 04, 2017

   I read the military instructor you mentioned thing wrong. They didn’t remove any limitations, nor did they recall any certificates due to the limited number issued (if it’s the circa 2010 instance you’re referring to). They made the multiengine class rating on the CFI non-renewable. In other words they believed the military instructors were not qualified to hold a MEI on the basis of their T-38-only experience.

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7. 
   

   
   

   Kris Kortokrax on Jun 05, 2017

   It is not true that inspectors enjoy any special privilege.

   On the cover page of Order 8900.2 there is a statement that :

   “This order contains procedures for authorized GA airman designees and inspectors to conduct certificate holder oral and practical tests and issue Temporary Airman Certificates.”

   Inspectors must use the 8900.2 unless there is a conflict between it and Order 8900.1. If there is a conflict, it is FAA policy that the document bearing the most recent date prevails. The section you reference in 8900.1 is dated 11/16/2012. Order 8900.2 is dated 8/23/2016. It’s information is the more recent, therefore it is the guidance to be followed.

   Further, on page 7-115 or Order 8900.2, the following statement appears:

   “The designee will conduct the practical test for original issuance, additional ratings, renewal, and/or reinstatement of a flight instructor certificate in accordance with the appropriate flight instructor PTS. The designee may also require the applicant to demonstrate knowledge and skill from other PTS that may include private pilot certificate, commercial pilot certificate, or instrument rating PTS, appropriate to the rating sought.”

   This statement, as well as the one in 8900.1, limits the DPE/ASI to tasks from the appropriate pilot PTS. It makes no reference to allowing use of multiple Flight Instructor PTS.

   The ASI who forced you to demonstrate tasks from the Instrument Instructor PTS was wrong. ASIs come from industry, people like you and me, who gain no special insight based upon who signs their paycheck.

   I added an Airplane Single Engine Sea rating to my pilot certificate after having received my Flight Instructor certificate. If that ASI’s reasoning were correct (which it isn’t), I would need to take a single engine seaplane to a DPE/ASI and demonstrate that I could teach all of the ASES tasks. That has never been a requirement. Neither has it ever been a requirement for a CFII to demonstrate an instrument approach during a CFI Multiengine practical test.

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