FAR 91.319, says Experimental can’t fly over densely populated areas. Yet they do all the time. Huh?

5 Answers

1. 
   

   
   

   Kris Kortokrax on Jun 08, 2015

   The exact wording is “Unless otherwise authorized by the Administrator in special operating limitations”.

   There is a set of operating limitations issued with the experimental airworthiness certificate. They are a part of the certificate and must be in the aircraft.

   The latest version of FAA Order 8130.2 contains a list of operating limitations which may be issued for any special airworthiness certificate.

   The pertinent one reads:

   “This aircraft is prohibited from operating in congested airways or over densely
   populated areas, unless directed by air traffic control, or unless sufficient altitude is maintained to effect a safe emergency landing in the event of a power unit failure, without hazard to persons or property on the ground.

   Note: This limitation is applicable to the aircraft after it has satisfactorily
   completed all requirements for phase I flight testing, has the appropriate
   endorsement in the aircraft logbook, and is operating in phase II.”

   You can see that after Phase I testing is complete, experimental aircraft are bound by the same regulation as standard category aircraft. They must be operated in accordance with 91.119(a).

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2. 
   

   
   

   Alex Censor on Jun 08, 2015

   “..The latest version of FAA Order 8130.2 contains a list of operating limitations which may be issued for any special airworthiness certificate.

   The pertinent one reads
   ..“This aircraft is prohibited from operating in congested airways or over densely
   populated areas, unless directed by air traffic control, or unless sufficient altitude is maintained to effect a safe emergency landing in the event of a power unit failure, without hazard to persons or property on the ground.” ”

   Hmmm.
   So are you or the FAA regs saying this “don’t fly over densely populated areas” rule only applies IF it is written on the special airworthiness certificate?

   ——–
   And by the way:
   Anyone know exactly (or approximately anyway) how is “densely populated” defined in theory or practice?
   Some extremes it’s an obvious yes or no. Not so clear, at least to me, when it’s the suburbs, etc.

   Curious if maybe the yellow areas on the sectional defining towns also define densely populated?

   Alex

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3. 
   

   
   

   Kris Kortokrax on Jun 08, 2015

   No, what I said is that the regulation states that you are not allowed to fly over densely populated areas unless it is authorized in the operating limitations. If it is authorized in the operating limitations, you will be required to fly at an altitude allowing a landing without hazard to persons or property on the ground if your engine fails.

   “Densely populated” is not defined. In NTSB cases, areas such as a beach with 11 Boy Scouts on it have been called congested. Suburbs would likely be congested (densely populated).

   I had always been told that the yellow areas on the sectional show what the lighted areas on the ground look like at night. However, in the FAA Aeronautical Chart User’s Guide, it shows that the yellow outline is showing the difference between Large Cities and smaller Cities and Large Towns. This would not be a way to identify whether an area is densely populated or not.

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4. 
   

   
   

   Alex Censor on Jun 14, 2015

   Hi Kris,

   “…..you will be required to fly at an altitude allowing a landing without hazard to persons or property on the ground if your engine fails….”

   Yeah, I’ve seen that regulation too. IIRR it applies to all aircraft at all times (possible exception being landing and taking off.
   ———————–
   ” § 91.119Minimum safe altitudes: General.
   Except when necessary for takeoff or landing, no person may operate an aircraft below the following altitudes:

   (a)Anywhere. An altitude allowing, if a power unit fails, an emergency landing without undue hazard to persons or property on the surface….”

   IMO it’s another regulation that is almost universally violated — even by commercial flights –with no apparent attempt to enforce the massive numbers of obvious violations.

   For example, in our particular inland valley about 80 miles (422,400 feet) from the coast it’s common for GA to make flights to the coast. Between us and the coast the terrain is such that most of it would not allow landing without hazard to property or persons if engine failed.

   To meet the standard of altitude required for that route (high enough to glide to credibly safe landing) with a 10 to 1 glide ratio (about as good as most of us have) we’d have to climb to about 42 thousand feet over our departure airport before turning toward the coast.

   A.

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5. 
   

   
   

   Kris Kortokrax on Jun 15, 2015

   91.119(a) uses the terminology “without undue hazard”.

   In a 1977 legal interpretation, the FAA wrote that “The word ‘undue’ is synonymous with ‘excessive’ or ‘unwarranted’. Therefore, it is our opinion that Section 91.79(a) (91.119(a) before the regs were re-codified) requires the operator to select an altitude, which in the event of a power unit failure, will permit an emergency landing to be made without excessive or unwarranted hazard to persons or property on the surface”.

   The operating limitation uses the words “without hazard”. This suggests that no hazard is allowed. It would be consistent with experimental aircraft as opposed to standard or transport category aircraft that had gone through the certification process.

   Based on the registration number on the airplane in the video you posted, I see you live in southern Oregon. The flight from your area to the coast could easily be conducted without causing undue hazard to persons or property on the surface. The terrain appears to be composed mostly of trees and a few small towns that could be avoided. There might be some potential hazard to the persons on board the aircraft, but 91.119(a) does not deal with them.

   I don’t think that 91.119(a) is “almost universally violated”, because of the use of the word “undue”.

   In looking at the operating limitations for an experimental airplane owned by a friend, I see his limitation states “No operations shall be conducted over densely populated areas or in congested airways except for takeoffs and landings”. These limitations were created in 1977. This would mean that the airplane cannot be flown over densely populated areas at all, even if no hazard were presented.

   Just out of curiosity, what is the wording concerning densely populated areas in your operating limitations?

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