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16 Answers

CFI logging time towards ATP XC Time

Asked by: 10511 views FAA Regulations, Flight Instructor

Hi I am trying to figure out ways to build my XC time for ATP.

Can a CFI log time spent with a private pilot who is working towards his XC time building for commercial pilot rating. I understand that the private pilot is the sole manipulator of controls so can surely log time as PIC. 

Wonder if I can use this time to offer free instruction to get a ride and build my  500 hours XC time at the same time legally?

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16 Answers



  1. Boiler on Apr 25, 2014

    Yes, you can both log it as PIC. He can because he is the sole manipulator and rated in the airplane. You can also log PIC and XC because you are acting as the authorized instructor.

    You need 500 hours of cross country for the ATP. You only need 200 XC for the R-ATP though, which is much more easily obtained while giving flight instruction. It’s all in the FAR-AIM.

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  2. Kris Kortokrax on Apr 25, 2014

    Boiler,

    61.51 allows logging PIC as an instructor. It also allows logging instrument time and NVG time when acting as an authorized instructor. Where in 61.3 do you see anything stating that an instructor can log XC time when flying with a student? Since the regulations do make statements regarding an instructor logging PIC, Instrument and NVG, I don’t think that it is an oversight that they didn’t mention XC. It would probably take a legal interpretation to make a final determination, but in light of a recent interpretation that disallows a safety pilot from logging XC, I don’t see how the instructor can log it while riding along with a Private pilot who in theory already knows how to fly cross country.

    Jaspreet,

    Exactly what instruction would you be giving to one who already knows how to fly cross country? When you log the other pilot’s “instruction” according to 61.51(h), how would you fill out his logbook? In your post, you pretty much described the situation as you riding along and putting XC time in your logbook while “giving instruction” that the pilot doesn’t need.

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  3. Mark Kolber on Apr 26, 2014

    I agree with Kris’s observation about the rules and that, due to series of cross country interpretations for safety pilots and other pilots, it would take a Chief Counsel interpretation to be certain.

    But I don’t =necessarily= agree that that the result of an interpretation would be “No.” CFIs who are giving instruction are treated a little differently in a number of areas. The same policy considerations (as opposed to the language of 61.3) that I think led to the Chief Counsel’s cross country series don’t really apply in the CFI situation apply in the same way.

    But the safest interpretation is the “No.”

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  4. Mooney M10 on Apr 27, 2014

    Would it be alright if the instructor acted as a safety pilot while the private pilot was under the hood???

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  5. Mooney M10 on Apr 27, 2014

    Would it be legal if the instructor acted as safety pilot while the private pilot was under the hood…

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  6. Kris Kortokrax on Apr 27, 2014

    The Gebhart interpretation does not allow the safety pilot to log cross country time.

    http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/agc/pol_adjudication/agc200/interpretations/data/interps/2009/gebhart%20-%20%282009%29%20legal%20interpretation.pdf

    To take the instruction scenario a little further, one could probably make the case for an instructor logging XC when the instructor serves as a required crewmember. Those cases would then probably be limited to the situations where dual cross country instruction is required for a certificate in Part 61.

    The scenario presented by Jaspreet would not provide him any more XC experience than riding in the back of an airliner and logging that as XC time. Someone else has done the planning and execution of the flight and he is just along for the ride and the logbook entry.

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  7. William Brynjo on Apr 28, 2014

    For the XC counted towards the aeronautical experience of an ATP, there is no requirement for a landing. Which as a I remember was one of the sticking points in the safety pilot being able to log xc, because he did not conduct the landing.

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  8. Kris Kortokrax on Apr 28, 2014

    Quite right about not needing the landing for ATP experience. However, the interp states that the safety pilot is not a required crewmember for the entire flight. Only the portion during which the other pilot is wearing a view limiting device (i.e. flight time after takeoff and before landing, whether the landing is accomplished at the XC point or at the point of origination of the flight). Since he is not a required crewmember for the entire flight, he cannot log XC time.

    I think that one could conceivably log XC time while acting as SIC in an airplane which requires two pilots (i.e. G-IV, LearJet, Challenger). One could not make the same argument for a CE-172 or PA-28 or PA-44, etc.

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  9. William Brynjo on Apr 28, 2014

    I. Thought we were talking about XC time in reference to CFIs

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  10. Kris Kortokrax on Apr 28, 2014

    We are talking about CFIs. We spun off to safety pilots with Mooney M10’s post.

    The big question is whether the CFI is required to be present. Is the CFI giving instruction that is required for a certificate or rating (in which case he/she would be required to be present) or is the CFI just going for a ride with someone who already knows how to fly cross country and then claiming that he/she gave the pilot “instruction” merely so the CFI can place a number in the XC column of his/her logbook?

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  11. Bob Watson on Apr 28, 2014

    I can think of lots of things the CFI could present or review in a cross country flight that would surely count as instruction. Sure, if they’re napping, they should log that as passenger time, but if they are reviewing airspace, various navigation methods, emergency procedures and “what if” scenarios, airplane systems. The list could get pretty long.

    Even if the pilot is already licensed and proficient, there’s always something to learn or review. Of course all that was covered should go in both log books.

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  12. Kris Kortokrax on Apr 28, 2014

    Admittedly, there are many things which could be taught during a cross country flight.

    If we are to assume that the pilot in question needs instruction on airspace, navigation methods and emergency procedures, we would pretty much have to also assume that the instructor who gave the pilot his initial training was negligent as well as the DPE who administered the practical.

    No new types of airspace have come into existence in recent times. Aside from pilotage, dead reckoning, VOR and RNAV, the Private pilot would be better served pursuing an instrument rating to fine tune his navigation skills.

    Call me a skeptic, but the first sentence of the original post doesn’t deal with trying to improve other pilot’s skills, but with building cross country time towards an ATP at someone else’s expense (“free instruction to get a ride”).

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  13. Jaspreet_bath@hotmail.com on Apr 29, 2014

    Kris

    Thanks for your insight into the question.

    The goal is definitely to build XC time and if I can use that time with a private pilot working on PIC time building which he/ she could rather do solo and would not be interested in spending money on an instructor. But at the same time the student can be taught other than airspace and XC skills. Eg: commercial maneuvers. Also reviewing knowledge is a part of instruction. Good pilots never stop learning. Also, CFIs are not just for initial training and not reviewing it even if not in FARs.

    My question is: It is not a required dual XC. So is it legal to for us both to log that as PIC time? If not, then I will be looking into other options to build XC time.

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  14. Kris Kortokrax on Apr 30, 2014

    I don’t know that I would want to distract my student from paying attention to the cross country flight by performing chandelles, lazy eights, pylon eights and steep spirals on the way. Similarly, I would not want to distract him from concentrating on the maneuvers while trying to get from point A to point B.

    Reviewing knowledge seems to be a task better suited to ground instruction prior to departure on a cross country.

    You could probably make a better case for providing instruction if you were flying with a pilot who had only flown with VOR navigation and you are introducing him to GPS navigation on a cross country flight. Another scenario would be if a pilot had acquired an airplane of a different make/model which he had not flown before and that you had experience flying. You could provide him with instruction flying this airplane on a cross country flight. The only problem is that these scenarios do not regularly occur.

    Another way to build cross country time would be to ferry airplanes from one location to another. Delivery flights. Flying airplanes to a place where maintenance or inspections would be performed.

    Powerline or pipeline patrol is another way.

    We here can only offer you our opinions concerning your question and they will vary. If you want a more binding opinion, you will need to present the question to the FAA’s Office of Legal Counsel.

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  15. Jaspreet_bath@hotmail.com on Apr 30, 2014

    Thanks for the feedback and suggestions Kris. Appreciate it.

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  16. Lazy-Eights on Oct 08, 2014

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